Different Religions in a relationship

Posted by AgitoM (216 days ago)

About a year ago I came into touch with a girl in Singapore whom I connected well with from the start. After we met, we soon ended up in a relationship.

There was one problem though. I'm a Christian and she was Muslim. This is something we talked about from the start and decided that we both didn't mind the other having a different religion.

Over the past year we have been out of contact for a small period, due to her struggling with a medical condition that took a long time to cure. However in the end we ended up continuing our relationship and it went well, for a while.

Things went wrong when her parents started to step in, and create a fuss over us having different religions. They saw us getting to serious, and this bothered them, it resulted in my girlfriend fighting with her parents about "Following the rules" VS. "Living her own life". Basically the demand of her parents was that I should convert to the Islam.

I had no intension to convert not because I am such a devoted Christian, but simply because I do not believe in forcing people to convert, next to that, I feel no affinity towards the Islam.

In February right after Valentine Day, her parents increased the pressure once more, and I could feel my girlfriend was being pushed close to her breaking point. I didn't want her to end up in a situation where she would be stressed at work during the day, only to come home at night to have to fight her parents. So I decided to break up with her.

4 months have passed now, and I still feel devastated about what happened. My girlfriend has broken contact with me, saying it only hurts her to talk to me.
I've tried to pick up my life again, but so far I can't seem to get over her. Wish there was a way to set things straight.

Is there anyone with a similar experience? Has a relationship such as mine ever worked out? What could a possible solution be?

Perhaps someone can also provide some insight into why its so important that in a marriage people have the same religion. I haven't gotten a decent answer to it yet. All I ever get is "Its the rule" and "God wants it to be like that". In my opinion, those are silly reasons.

(I am based in Singapore)

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Posted by woods99 (216 days ago)

You are asking a very good question. Unfortunately, there is no easy answer.


If you are a committed Christian, and your girlfriend is a committed Muslim, the simple fact is that your beliefs have a lot in common (surprisingly), but some very important differences.

Muslims simply cannot accept the idea of the Trinity. They believe in one God, and that is it as far as they are concerned. They do revere Jesus, and his Mother, they believe that Jesus is the Messiah, but they do not, cannot, accept that Jesus is God.

There is not much point thinking about these differences. They exist, and you will not change them. If you really, really, love your girlfriend, I suggest that you learn more about Islam, and consider whether your life would be happier and more fulfilling if you converted.

God is God. None of us can really know all that much about God. So, maybe there are different paths to the truth, and to happiness.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (216 days ago)

I'm not a committed Christian at all, I only go to church a few times a year. Never pray, and try to avoid the whole God subject as much as possible. Not easy in Singapore where conservative Christians seem to be a growing group.

I wasn't willing to change because I am against forcing people to convert. To me it seems such rules purely exist to ensure the source of power and income of any Church.

I consider myself quite knowledgeable about many religions, know that Christianity and the Islam have a lot in common. Which made this demand even more bizar to me. I simply can't imagine myself "pretending" to be a Muslim, and follow all the restrictions that come with it.

Right now, me and my gf are not talking, she ignores my message. Been thinking though, maybe I should just convert if only in name, still something I would prefer to avoid. Which is why I hope to hear from other people who have seen, or experienced cases similar to me.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by ribbons (216 days ago)

It is unwise of you to convert 'in name' and continue to have different beliefs. Your life would become a sham. Let me give you an example. The man in the example, like you, holds an eclectic position on religion, tolerant, but expecting everyone to aspire to some overarching ethical morality when confronting differences. All seemed to go reasonably well until baby is born, and she wants circumcision, but he sees it as mutilation - enormous grief ensued. Things like these will put you on a cultural divide. For those for whom their religion is not merely belief in God, but a ritual way of life, there cannot be compromise without enormous internal division.

Do not convert unless you are really willing to embrace the whole box and dice with enthusiasm. If not, you will always find yourself a cynical observer, and not an active participant. Also, different religions demand not only religious and ritualistic adherence, but also social cohesion. You are probably going to have to mix with Muslims, and accept Muslim culture as your own. I don't get the feeling you are able to do this without an enormous sense of loss of intellectual and spiritual autonomy.

In fact, you sound like a theorist. This will put you at odds with a person who relates to her religion from a lived experience.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (216 days ago)

Thanks Ribbons,

You hit the nail on the head. This is partially why I am reluctant to convert. I'm not so interested in going along in their culture, and give myself an identify conforming that culture. And yes, I'll be a cynical observer.

As my gf told me at that time, nothing much was expected of me. Do the minimum to convert, no need to go to the Mosque, fast or whatever (just stop being a Christian).
Off course I wonder how in the future these set boundaries will be challenged by her family.

As for Baby's well I've always said I want my children to have a choice as for religion. They can decide for themselves, I am not going to "tag" them on birth. My gf agreed with this, found it fair enough. But again, no telling what her parents may put for pressure again, when it comes to that moment.

All in all, I find it a sad situation, unnecessary as well. Wish there was a solution.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by ribbons (216 days ago)

Well, there is a solution Agito, and it's called "Get Out Now". From what you write, I can really see terrible consequences further down the track. It might seem that there must be a way around this, but I can assure you, there isn't. It's a fundamental issue in one's life, one's choice of religion, and if you married, you would want to be the head of your own family, and make decisions for your children. You are someone with strong viewpoints, and over time, if you married, your wife is going to feel progressively alienated from her family and culture. It may not matter that much to her at the moment, but as we get older, we definitely become more interested in continuing our formative experiences in the next generation.

You made a wise decision to leave. It is so hard. I know this. Time heals, but somethings are best walked away from when they pose too many problematic and irreconcilable issues.

As to letting your children decide their own religions, I feel you don't quite 'get it' that religion and culture are socialised practices... You can't raise a child in a religous vacuum, or smorgasbord and expect them to choose one at the end. Being a member of a particular religion etc. is an indivisible part of one's identity.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by woods99 (215 days ago)

I agree. Either break up the relationship, or convert to Islam. There is no other choice.

Her family would disown her if she were to convert to Christianity, and it doesn't sound as though she wants to do that anyway.

If you are a committed Christian, then obviously you have no choice but to walk away.

However, there are a lot of good Muslims in the world, and most of them are not fanatical about their religion.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (215 days ago)

Thanks for your reactions everyone.
Guess there really is nothing else to do for me, then accept the situation for the way it is. Its amazing though, how much religion can destroy.

As for my children being allowed to choose a religion, well I'm not saying I will keep religion away from them, just I will not "brand" them with a specific religion on birth. The bulk of the people around me in my homeland, have massively turned their backs on the religion their parents gave them. (And I'm not so far from that myself). I see no point in my children having a religion when they feel nothing for it anyhow.
It should be noted though, unlike in Asia, religion is more a private matter then a social practice where I am from, so you won't end up in isolation should you not have one.

I agree though, should I stay in Singapore, the religion of my children may be a problem in the future.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by lone007 (215 days ago)

i was Christian now convert to islam , coz i found islam is true religion and i read holy book quran and now i am married to muslim man ,coz my husband family is native muslim they want me to convert to islam,whatever islam is true religion.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by ribbons (215 days ago)

AgitoM, I understand your feelings, but I hope you don't end up feeling too negative about religion because of this experience. The fact that it means little to you, but it does to your girlfriend and her family indicates quite an incompatibility. I don't think religion is the element that has 'destroyed' here, rather that you would expect her - and any children you may have - 'to rise above' their particular cultural religion, and live by an undefined (perhaps generally ethical) code of behaviour or mix of general principles derived from logic and tempered with a sense of 'natural morality'... or who knows what? But why should she sample the market when she is neither disillusioned, or left ungrounded by her own religion? The problem here is not the religion, but the fact that you can't share it with her, and not only that, but you see no or little value in it, or in fact, it seems, any other religion.

Of course I realise that many people are disillusioned by the religions they were raised within, and seek another or a spiritual experience or a path of intellectual separateness from religion, blaming religion for division, but that is only part of the story.

We all need to respect each other's religions and see that for those who follow them with dedication, they are trying to find a way to be better people, hopefully grounded in a code and practice that can give their lives meaning, cultural continuity and a guide for social and personal moral conduct. This often appears a lame excuse for failing to exercise free thinking to western intellectuals, who prefer an individual path not restrained by a religion.

For many raised with a richly symbolic and resonating faith within a supportive community, the idea of isolating oneself from it to walk away and be blown around by the four winds seems a much less appealing choice. Within those religions and traditions, there are always pockets of people who are exploring and challenging their spirituality to reach a personalised interpretation of the core.

I hope you find someone who can walk the same path with you, so that neither of you can compromise your true selves. So sorry for your sadness.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (215 days ago)

I respect the fact that people have different religions, and respect that people other then me, can follow it with devotion. However I disapprove of enforcing a religion upon a person, which is exactly what happened in this case.

My girlfriend was also not the strongly devoted type, which is why she found it perfectly acceptable to be in a relationship with me. (I raised the issue with her even before we got into a relationship, because I knew this could become a problem) Things went wrong under community pressure, which got enforced when our relationship got to serious. Basically her family was afraid of being condemned by the rest of the family and community. Her parents didn't want to be seen as the "parents who raised their daughter wrongly".
That is also why she ended up fighting her family with the argument "Living my own life" versus "Be a proper Muslim".

So yes, I do feel religion can destroy many things, because in almost every religion community pressure is used to prevent a person from leaving, or doing anything that might make the group of followers smaller. I can't help wondering, if you force a person to convert, or force a person to stay with a particular religion, is that person a true believer? It is this shadow side of religion that I dislike.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by ribbons (215 days ago)

You are right to resist being forced to join a religion. It's odious, as you say, and ought not to be done. No church leader of at least the orthodox religions would convert someone who did not demonstrate a true desire to be a convert, and in some religions, a tribunal or 'court' is set up to ensure that the person wishing to convert is doing so at their own volition, and for the right reasons. It is not a matter of ceasing to be the other religion, but sometimes a long process of induction, often even involving the learning of the language of the holy text, so not a process for light-weights. I think your girlfriend was mistaken to believe that it would be a routine or shallow gesture, without any conviction on your part that you actually believed, and this may have given you the impression that it was something that was more show than substance.

You were right to resist if you did not feel any conviction. Most churches are against inter-marriage and don't do services for people who want the ceremony, but not the faith for obvious reasons - it compromises their integrity - which is something you also hold dear. The religion won't force someone to convert, but her family will try to, which is another issue.

I think you might benefit from making an appointment with the leader of a Mosque to talk to him about your situation, at least to know what is involved, and at least be able to be clear about the coercion issue. Also, it may help you get a better picture about the religion, so that you can separate it out from the other issues which you talk about, your girlfriend's family pressure etc.

Clearly, she's not going to leave her family, but she may be willing to make allowances for your views. How much would you be prepared to give on the matter is uncertain. It is one thing to say one doesn't care about the other person's religion, until it starts to impact upon your life. Ahead there is the question of how you would feel about the children etc... and few people ever really know how they are going to react to that. I think you should speak to someone though to get this off your chest so you know what marrying a Muslim would involve, even if you didn't convert.

It may well be that your g/f wanted you because it would help her escape from a more restrictive life if she married a devout Muslim. In which case, you both would really need to think about the issues. If she is prepared to forego her religion, and risk the family pressure, what would be the consequences? Are you both prepared to endure them?

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by flashback (214 days ago)

Sounds like your girlfriend may want out of the religous life... if so, it doesn't make sense for her to get you into it, so that she can have a more liberal existence while outwardly appearing to be something else.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (214 days ago)

In a way all of you are correct, she wasn't to keen on living a devoted Moslima life. But for every child its hard to go against their parents, specially when they play the "emotional card". (Another reason I feel that religion in general has its shadow side) Which is what made her hope at some point I would convert, but on the same hand didn't want me to make such a sacrifice.

For me its hard to start pretending I have a lifestyle that I feel nothing for. Prefer not to live like a hypocrite (and from what I read in the Qu'ran, God doesn't like hypocrites either). Hence I was hoping there to be some compromise. A Win-Win situation.

As for talking to a Imam about it, actually thought about doing that before, might actually do that. May give me some answers too.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by Kate71 (213 days ago)

I have a dear friend who is Jewish - at least in name. He doesn't actually believe in very much, but his family observe the cultural side of the religion (Friday night family suppers to observe the sabbath etc) - I'm not sure how strict they actually are. This mate of mine fell in love with 2 gorgeous non-Jewish girls (several years apart) - but each time he got serious,his family disapproved and he felt he had to choose between continuing to see them and bowing to family pressure... he gave way and split up with them... he now (a couple of years on) regrets his decisions

I know that this is slightly different to your situation but I guess all I'm saying is that maybe some things are worth fighting for if both parties want it enough...

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by ribbons (213 days ago)

I suppose it's important to look in the right places in the first place....

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by beancurd (213 days ago)

I have two daughters brought up as catholic, studied in catholic school and both of them ended as muslim. They worked in Middle east and they studied Islam and I really do not know how they were easily changed their mind to become a Muslim.

In your case, if you do not want to become a Muslim, there will be a lot of trouble ahead in the future, how the children were brought up, your in-laws will always interfere and different culture actually. And it will add stress in the relationship.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tiwari64 (212 days ago)

agitoM, by focusing too much on 'to convert or not to convert', could you be missing what really matters to both of you?

You've said that from the start, different religions was not important for both of you. It became an issue only when she came under parental pressure. So isn't the real issue here her ability (or inability) as an adult to make her own decision about whether or not to marry the man she loves - 'living my own life' - as she put it. This she needs to do not by 'fighting' with her parents, but by taking the decision she considers right for her as an adult. It was indeed a stressful situation for her (in Feb.), and it seems she was struggling to make a choice. Your love was her real strength, and she needed your absolute support to withstand the parental pressure, and hopefully make the right decision to unite with you in love.

Sadly, this was when you "decided to break up with her", with all good intentions. But did you really think it will make her happy, at peace? Have you wondered why she said, 'it hurts to talk with you'?

You could have done better then, and you can do better now. It is not the time to be concerned about your future child's possible circumcision. Right now, the woman you love is lonely and she is hurting. That's all that should matter at the moment. How about starting communication with a genuine apology for leaving her? Somehow make her believe that you'll always be there for her no matter what -for better or worse. Assuming, of course, that you truly love her.

Then, knowing that you still want to marry her (without converting), will allow her to make a choice. If she decides to accept your proposal, then you both need to do so with full awareness of family/social pressures and difficulties. If, on the other hand, she opts to obey her parents wishes, and refuses to marry you unless you convert, then you will know the extent to which she allows her life decisions to be influenced by her parents. This should be factored into any decision you then take.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by aworkingmum (210 days ago)

Ribbons said,

"Do not convert unless you are really willing to embrace the whole box and dice with enthusiasm. If not, you will always find yourself a cynical observer, and not an active participant. Also, different religions demand not only religious and ritualistic adherence, but also social cohesion. You are probably going to have to mix with Muslims, and accept Muslim culture as your own. I don't get the feeling you are able to do this without an enormous sense of loss of intellectual and spiritual autonomy."

An enormous sense of loss of intellectual autonomy? That's a little over the top isn't it?

I've lived with this ALL my life. My parents are a combination of Catholic(mum) - devout, mum almost wanted to be a nun and Muslim (dad). Of course, culturally they were different too. Mum was Chinese-Eurasian and Dad, Eurasian-Malay. It was great! We grew up appreciating all aspects of being a multi-racial Singaporean family. My parents chose to be sensitive to their parents needs and made decisions accordingly i.e. convert in name, accept in name to both cultures and religions and they played the part well and yet at the same time fulfilled theirs. As children, we were exposed to both beliefs and explained (when we were old enough) that God gave us free will. They went as far as sending us to an Anglican school, going to Arabic school once a week to learn about Islam, going for all Catholic events, giving us neutral names that appealed to both families. At the end of the day, whatever they did in name, worked. No dramas.

It was great for us kids - growing up in two cultures and religions and WE benefited. Made us global citizens. I know how to behave in a church and a mosque within the Catholic, Christian and Muslim world. I understand the role of religion in life. Today, my partner and I are the same, I still have to appease the Muslim side of my dad's family and my partner's VERY Catholic family. I've done as my parents and NEVER looked back.

Both my parents and I have done what we needed to do for peacekeeping purposes and there is NO regret!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by ribbons (210 days ago)

Aworkingmum. It is OTT to suggest that all people would feel like cynical observers, or a sense of loss if they converted without a true conviction. OP's objections though did seem to be on these questions, relating to his reluctance to adopt another identity, and who can blame him? In your case, it seems no one set the requirement to convert on the other - therefore no feelings of coercion, and therefore a happier result.

You were immersed in a range of religions, therefore were tolerant of them, by a family that recognised the value of religion, whatever the choice. I think it's a different scenario from that posed by AgitoM, who seems rather disillusioned with religion per se.

In any case, you and your family have demonstrated a very mature and tolerant approach that is commendable, and also shows it is possible to bridge these gaps with understanding, but without sacrificing the freedom to make these decisions for oneself.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (210 days ago)

The situation that aworkingmum described was exactly the situation as I would have hoped it would have turned out. Introduce religion to children when they are old enough, instead of forcing it up on them since birth. Why not celebrate both Christmas and Hari Raya Puasa? I believe that children will, when given a wide exposure, will eventually end up with the religion they feel most comfortable with, and be open towards other religions at the same time. This was also a view that my gf agreed with.

Everything changed however, when their family started to get involved. Even though I've never taken up the matter with her parents directly myself, I heard through my gf, that the situation is uncompromisable. The treats of her family are real since people in her family have been disowned and out casted from the family in the past for getting married to a non-Muslim.

Yes, the whole incident left me quite disillusioned with religion in general. Can't but help feeling that such rules exist basically the ensure the power and income of a Church.

Anyway Ribbons, decided to take up your advice, will probably go Islamic Foundation for converts this weekend to talk to some of the people there. Not because I'm going to convert, but just to get a insight into the whole situation from a Islamic point of view, but most off all, to get things of my chest.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by ribbons (210 days ago)

I think that's a good idea, AgitoM. It's clear you love this girl, and that she wants to be with you. Miracles can happen, in any religion.;-)

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Happiness is a state of mind... (210 days ago)

Hi AgitoM - so sorry to hear that this happened to you. Gotta say that I agree with tiwari64 though - the issue here isn't the fact that you were from different religions or that indeed either of you was not really religious at all. It's the fact that a grown woman who had met the love of her life allowed her fundamentalist parents dictate her life to the extent that she was emotionally blackmailed! I'm truly sorry, and I'm sure your girlfriend was a lovely person, but anyone who allows someone to say 'do what I tell you to do or I will sever all ties' is behaving like a doormat and will likely never change her behavior pattern. She should have told them very politely that while she understands that they're upset about the differences in religion but she's sorry - she's found the man she wants to spend her life with and she hopes that they will be very happy for her. If they can't then that is THEIR problem - true they might cut her out of their lives, but honestly I don't know how you can continue, or really wish to maintain, a relationship based on the offensive terms of emotional terrorism (extreme words I know but that's just how it appears to me). The fact that she couldn't or wouldn't do this does go to the heart of why you ended it, which I think you were right to do, which is unless you're both willing to meet in the middle there can't be a true meeting of the minds and building of a future. I do think it is an excellent idea though to go speak with a muslim convert, as you say not to convert yourself but to better understand where they are coming from intellectually and emotionally. I do wish you luck in your next relationship and would caution you to remember that it's not the religion question/issue that fractured the last relationship it was the inability of your girlfriend to stand on her own two feet and say this is who I am and this is what I want - I'm sorry if you don't agree. All the best for the future!

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (210 days ago)

Well, her parents were not exactly fundamentalists, as a matter a fact they were quite fond of me. (And don't think they deserve to be referred to as such). The problem was more fear of pressure from the rest of the community.

In my opinion, it is something that happens a lot in the group, there is a socially accepted opinion, and people feel they should express that opinion in a group. It may not exactly be the opinion they agree with. But its the opinion they feel they should express.

As for my gf, well she is a Asian girl after all. Where a western person would at some point decide to go against their family to pursue what they want, a Asian person will not do that so easily, specially when the emotional card is played.
It wouldn't be the first time that Asian I know make a comment that sugests, or straightforward ask, if I love my parents, because I went against them quite frequently. On which I end up explaining that going against your family doesn't mean you don't love them, but simply is a matter of leading your own life. But its a different case here.

I could see the emotional pressure was consuming my gf, and any person when pressured long enough will just snap and break. It is something I wanted to avoid.
Currently me and my gf are not talking anymore, she ignores my email and calls, claiming its to painful for her to be in touch with me.

So I'm going to drop her a message, tell her I'm going to have a talk with the convert, leave it to her what to do with it. As for going to the convert, I'm just going to talk with them to get it off my chest, get their perspective on the matter, and try and find out if the implications of mixed really are that heavy. Sometimes there is a difference between what the followers of a religion say, and the actual leaders.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by aworkingmum (209 days ago)

AgitoM, I should mention that my mother (the Catholic) converted in name and my grandfather was never the wiser. When it was Hari Raya Puasa, she celebrated it. And when it was Christmas, he (my dad) celebrated it. As kids, we LOVED it.

I understand the whole Asian rationale you mentioned. My cousin (in Singapore, he's Muslim) recently married a Chinese girl. And she converted in name too. It's a six months course i think to convert. She went through the whole shebang (treated it like a uni course - Islam 101 - An introduction into the Muslim World, they both compromised on a Western Styled Wedding & Chinese Tea Ceremony (No under the void deck wedding) and both families was happy. He practices Islam and leaves her to practice her beliefs even after the conversion. And like my sisters and I, their daughter who is 2 now is exposed to both worlds and will probably turn out as we have.

Good Luck with it all. Just think of the bigger picture of the global family you'll be raising ;-)

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by doncella (207 days ago)

Well just to start,

I’m sorry that you are in such a dilemma, I got into a similar situation I’m from a catholic family, background, country etc, and my ex is Hindu, I’ll highly advice you to think about it before you step forward to a very traditional (fanatic religious) community, I’ve lived a real night mare that cost me lots of tears, sweat and blood; I give up everything for this person and I try very hard to be accepted and do everything and more possible to fit in and make them happy, lots of frustration when the family got evolved and they start to boss my life like I was just a piece of furniture with no opinion whatsoever, everything was so difficult and I even pray every single day no to wake up the next morning etc. I even try to kill myself once, is not worth it trust me. I thought I could handle everything because of my love for this person but soon I realized that it was only me who compromised on give everything sad, I end up divorce with kids; but as soon as leave the relationship I become a normal person again and we are happier than ever.
Wish you the best luck, if you are willing to go all the way and give up on yourself for this person good for you but just be careful not to get hurt. I don’t say is good or bad but for sure very difficult to handle.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by zonked (207 days ago)

My take on this is that if both of you really and intensely love eachother, and are focussed on being together, the religion issue is actually a minor one. The committment to eachother should take precedence and both of you can decide to not follow any religion at all!

One thing to keep in mind is though, when one family is being so difficult, is to be away from that family. If you stay in the same city their interference and thus the influence on their daughter will definitely create problems in your relationship. You will be able to manage it better if you're away from their prying eyes.

Just live your life, away from them, not by breaking any contact, but rather explaining them with calm that you need to live your life in your way.

It is wrong to say that any particular religion is more fanatical than the other. You find fanatics in every religion and not everyone of a particular religion is so stcuk up on the religious factor!

I am a Hindu but I come from a rather enlightened family. And, I have an aunt who is married to a Muslim and it is from her experience that I say it is good to stay away from the families.... especially in her case her husband's family even though they are also quite broad minded. But back then they decided to stay away from their families to avoid any troubles that might arise in the future.

If you love eachother -- find a way to be together, rather than break up! Second step -- protect yourself from interference of the families.

I wish you luck.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tigerbay (206 days ago)

My mother was catholic. My father protestant. My father ahd to convert to catholicism as my mother wanted a Catholic marriage. Us kids were brought up as CofE.

There are different levels of belief. There are the zealots, the devout, those practising but otherwise secular, and non practicing.

Devout Christian (born again) do not like kids marying non-born again christians.

I have a friend who is a secular Jew, he enjoys the holidays, eats pork, but wears a skull cap for wedding and funeral and those special Synagogue events.

There are very few non practicing Muslims in Asia, although many are secular.

You have hit a cultural difference (not race) here, that is connected with religion.

If her parents are secular Muslims they may accept you being non-practicing, but you must still be moslem. It is unlikely that she would convert, as in Sharia law turning away from Islam is punishable by death. I am not saying this would happen, but it shows the level of stigma. Her family would loose all reputation in thier community.

If you are a practicing Christian you cannot consider converting to Islam. If you are non-practicing then it will make little difference tou your life and value system. You will just celebrate different holidays.

If you really love her, then you may need to consider letting her go. Especially if your relatiohsip will destroy other relationships that are important. You will both move on and fall in love again, with somebody who is free to make the choice.

Life is not fair, sometimes our love is not realistically possible. There are other examples, falling in love with somebody married, or even a relative.

Life sucks sometimes, we cannot always get what we want, or what we feel we are due,but we must make the best of what we are given and what is available.

Final point.
If you are really asking her to turn her back on her family and her community for you, are you being fair on her.

(I am based in Shanghai)

Posted by zonked (206 days ago)

I think converting to another faith is not needed to marry! It is totally upto you.

Atleast, back home in India, there is a special marriage act under which couples from different religions can marry and have full sanction by law and the scoiety at large.

As I wrote yesterday -- my aunt and her husband did not bother to convert! They both don't "practice" their religions.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by By Ron (199 days ago)

This is an awful shame. Personally, I would convert to Islam marry her and then become an apostate. However, that would cause more trouble I suspect. Religions have some good points but they all have a fatal weakness in the way that people outside the religion are viewed. You could try explaining to the parents that both Christianity and Islam are based on the views nutters wandering around in the desert but that wouldn't cut much ice I suppose.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by p.mason (199 days ago)

AgitoM - sorry to be so blunt, but you need to take a severe dose of realism. This talk of "converting" to Islam is a load of nonsense. In just the same way as it is when one talks about "converting" to another religion - unless, of course, it comes of your own volition (when you truly "see the light"), rather than from pressure from others. When someone is being required to "convert" what they are being told to do is to swot up on the religion and agree to conform and abide by its rules. And then pretend that they believe in it. But, it is, of course, all a pretence. You are being required to convert to Islam as a condition of marrying your girl -- I hope you understand what this will mean for your marriage and your children. The insistence on your "converting" is more than the thin end of the wedge of interference by the girl's parents. Even if you think it stops there, I think you are mistaken. The parents are (successfully, it would appear) trying to control their daughter, you, and your marriage. The parents and their view of Islam will be ever present in your life and that of your children whom you will be required to bring up as good Muslims and, in this respect, your wife will, no doubt, do exactly as her parents tell her and you (as a "good Muslim") will just have two toe the line. And, as with other religions, the brainwashing will start very young but will probably be much more intense. So, you would not just be acquiring a wife but a "faith" and a degree of control over your whole life which you could well live to regret. So, unless you genuinely wish to embrace Islam without any pressure from anyone else or, simply, from a desire to marry your girl, then I think you would come to regret succumbing to the sort of pressure which is being applied. You might wish to have a look at Sam Harris' book: "The End of Faith: Religion, Terror and the Future of Reason". And, before people start bursting blood vessels about the reference to "terror" please note that this book attacks both Islam and Christianity.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (199 days ago)

p.mason:
I fully agree with you, and as I stated several times before, I believe that the problem with religions is that they consider themselves as having the ultimate truth, and use rules like converting before marriage to ensure a source of power and income to the religion. And it disgusts me.

Let me also mention again, me and my gf were miles away from marriage, but her parents decided to put pressure at this early stage already, under the motto: "Better break up now then later".

So I broke up with my gf, because I didn't want her family to break her and emotionally blackmail her. I also was unwilling to let myself being converted, and held on to my principles. And then it struck me, what is the point? What did sticking as little faith as I had, and holding on to my principles gain me? I lost the person I loved more then anything. Her family was happy it ended, so was mine, and then what? Do I get a medal or a reward for making what seemed to be a logical and good decision? Truth is that "doing the right thing" only left a bitter taste and a empty feeling. Worst of all, nobody seemed to care.

Tried to pick up my life, even go out with other girls, didn't help, none of them even come close to her. I regret the decision I made, and would I be able to turn it back, I would do so.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by ribbons (198 days ago)

Agito, your last post is so sad. Yes, life is so unfair. Yet, we lose people we love through all sorts of ways, as one poster above mentioned, either through the finality of death, or through other social and cultural factors over which we have no control. Most of us are living at one level with a great loss of one kind or another. Other people don't seem to care, but they do. Yet most can only tell you to do what they are doing: bearing it silently, getting on, getting through it and hopefully over it eventually. There is a terrible emptiness at the heart of a lot of human behaviour which most just can't acknowledge or address. You're a sensitive person, so you are feeling it keenly right now, and perhaps it is your first deep cut.

p.mason is right, as you know logically, but intuitively you feel it's all wrong that this is the way things have to be. The only thing like the pain of a lost love is the pain of learning through disenchantment with the world. That pain is called growing up, which eventually clarifies into wisdom.

I can only assure you that though your g/f is a wonderful person, you will meet other people who you can love and form a deep relationship with. And though it looks like there is a veritable smorgasbord of available women out there, you've learned the truest lesson of life from this experience: that true love is rare, and must be seized when one has the chance, but not at the expense of the self, and that there are probably only a few people we will ever connect deeply with.

I think what this whole experience has been about for you is realising the world is not fair, that we can't have everything we want, but we can never compromise the self to get what we want whether it is love, money, fame or whatever. Your identity is the core of yourself. This experience can be used either to descend into bitterness, or to rise to self-knowledge and maturity. Do go on. We all live with some pain or another, but we live deep and rich lives because of it, and know that it is our losses that have made us the strong people that we are. You have made an integritous decision. Don't regret it, even though it is not the decision others might make. That is what makes you, you and them, them.

You need a friend right now, and lots of activity, maybe a holiday. I think if you can realise that you are not the only one living with this pain, then you will be able to transcend it, enjoy the present more and live in hope.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by foxmulder (198 days ago)

My goodness, Ribbons, I love the way you write - both in what you say and how you say it.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by ribbons (198 days ago)

Thanks foxmulder, yet we can only speak authentically to people who open up authentically. Agito has bared his true feelings here. That deserves people to respond as authentically as they can.

I like that about this site - that people genuinely want answers, and genuinely try to help. The more perspectives the better.

Agito, you're going to make someone a great partner if you keep to your principles, and eventually you will be happy with your decision. Your ethical standards are high and commendable.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by tigerbay (196 days ago)

agito

Another take on the situation of relationships that do not follow through. I read this somewhere a long time ago.

What is the definition of a succesful relationship? Is there a proper definition? If the definition of a succesful relatiionship is one that ends in marriage, then by definition most relationships are failures. As most people date several people before they find their partner.

Instead we can take away fond memories of every relationship we have, and these are memories we can hold dear for the rest fo our lives. Even if we never marry, or marry somebody else, we can retain these memories.

I only mention this as it helped me goet through a rough patch a while ago.

Sorry if it is not PC, but I read it back in the 1970s. And I still remember the essense of it well.

(I am based in Shanghai)

Posted by RINZ (188 days ago)

Why you even bother of all this converting or not converting? You are not even a Christian yourself! How could you call yourself a Christian if you almost NEVER go to church or pray to God (assuming Jesus and the trinity here as the God in Christian belief). Do you even know what's the meaning of 'Christian' is? You are called 'Christian' because you are a believer and follower of Jesus Christ. The word 'Christian' is derived from Christ, meaning follower or a disciple of Christ. Do you even read the bible? It is WRITTEN there what a Christian means. You are not a Christian! You are only a Christian by Identity! If you want to call yourself a Christian, ask yourself this: 'Do you have a relationship with God(Jesus)?' A relationship is different from praying on a daily basis and say: Oh , God, please bless my family, my dad, my mom, my girlfriend, my dog..etc..that is not a relationship, that is a shopping list!, a relationship is where you can confide your true feeling and hear what God has to say too! And God's feelings too! Do you even know God can talk back?
'Do you follow his practice?' Do you more and more become more like Jesus himself? Forgiving, love, fearing God, praying, caring for others, etc etc. 'Do you read the bible (God's love letters)?' 'Do you go to church regularly(Socializing)' Do you know that praying is talking? Do you know that there is no such a thing like praying only when you are in church? Church is only for socializing with other Christian as a whole body of Christ. But praying is personal between you and Him.
If you never pray, never read the bible, never go to church, never know who Jesus is personally, never follow His practice, how can you call yourself 'a Christian'?

You are NOT a Christian! You are only a Christian ON YOUR ID CARD. That's a big difference. Even if you convert to atheism or satanism or whatever, what change does it make? Only what is written on your ID that change!

(I am based in Shanghai)

Posted by tiwari64 (188 days ago)

agito,

Did you ever propose to her - told her that you will not convert, and asked her to marry you?
If she walks out of her parents' home tomorrow, and stands up against her parents' demand for convertion, will you marry her? If the answer is yes, does she know that?

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by persuitofhappiness (175 days ago)

Hi Agito M

Everything that have been written here its total BS.

I am muslem, devoted, who practice 5 times a day. My wife is Christian and still is who goes to Church every sunday, Been married for 5 years and dating for almost 8.

Now let me tell you something,

In the Eyes of God, Christian, Jew or Muslem we all "people of the book" we all follow the same concept even thought we differ in few things.
Muslem do no believe in trinity,
jews do not believe in the Second Testamenet,
Christian do not belive in Koran.
But at the end we all have same concept abotu god.

Some poeple wheather muslem or Chrisitan or jew, are changing the whole meaning of Religion out of pure wants. Its what they want, its mostly her parents thinking oh what poeple will say about us if my daughter marry a chrisitan and so u parents will think the same.

here is the deal mate: sti down with ur girl, and talk, Do u care about what poeple say, think or act or do u care about ur true love for each other???

if u, her, her parents, ur parent, think more about what poeple think instead of ur own happiness than the relationship ur having is dumed from the start. U better try to find a way of fixing things with each other without thinking about Parents. and so she need to do too.

the only concern u will have is ur baby, will he / she be muslem or Chrisitan? if u can fix this than thats it u can fix anything else.

tell her parent to find something better to do. do they care about their daughter happiness or what poeple or what religion her husband is. WHo cares as long as she is happy and u taking care of her.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (172 days ago)

Sorry it took me a while to respond to the post, I've been in Malaysia for a while, ill and busy with work.

Ribbons:
Thank you for your many nice reactions. As foxmulder wrote, they are very sincere and comforting.
You are right about one thing, I indeed can't get all I want in life, and its in my nature to always try getting whatever I want. I need goals and ambitions to keep myself going, and tend to rather try something and fail, then not try at all.
Down side to that, I also tend to not give up on a matter, not matter what happens, guess its the same thing with this relationship. Feeling unable to "fix" the situation causes me a great deal of suffering.

Then again, there has been no other girl in my life ever, who could make me feel the way she made me feel.
So in a way I feel I shouldn't give up on her, even though things look very grim right now.

RINZ:
Please do not lecture me on Christianity. I come from a nation with a strong Christian tradition, have been exposed to, and studied, the various aspects of Christianity my whole life. Next to that, I have quite a bit of general knowledge of Jewism, Islam, Hinduism and Budhism. Knowledge that proved quite usefull when moving to Asia, since it helps me understand people better.

No I don't pray a lot, don't feel its necessary to bother God all the time. As for going to Church, I don't do that a lot either. In my homeland there are to many people in church who seem to constantly condemn other people for being different. In Asia church seems to be more a social event. People don't go there to be with God, but to make friends, going to church is but a means to kill their loneliness and be friends. As I have often seen in Singapore, the loneliness of particularly foreigners is often exploited by church groups to increase their church members.
Again typically within such a friend group, the ones that behave as the most devoted gain the most popularity.

As for Jesus, I see him as a good and kind person who did good to everyone. Thought us to be loving and compassionate, even towards our enemies and those outcast by society. Seeing people claim that their faith is the truth. Look down on people of other faiths. Helping people to promote their faith, instead of just helping to help a person in need. And claim that some people are not Christians or not faithful because they don't spend a lot of time on their knees hardly seems to be in line with Jesus his teachings.

So this is how I choose to live my life, not looking at God all the time to make things better, but try do what I can myself.
I try to be good to all, and even if I do harm, I try to set things straight. I don't judge and condemn people that are different, accept them the way they are, even though I may not share their views.
This is also the reason I accepted my girlfriend as my partner, even though she was a Muslim, to me it didn't matter.

persuitofhappiness:
I'm very happy to hear your story, the way you describe your relationship with your wife is quite simular to how I imagined my relationship.

Yes I know that in the Islam Jews and Christians are considered "People of the Book", and believe in the same God (Just follow the teachings of different Prophets)
I once, out of curiousity, read the sections of the Qu'ran that tell about Jesus, I was quite amazed that the story is about 80% the same.

It was because of the concept of believing in the same God, that I had hoped things would work out between me and my gf.
To her different religions also didn't matter, and since our religions had a lot in common, we considered it even less a problem.
However, as I have stated many times by now, the community around her had a different opinion.

As for our children, well I've always held the opinion that children should not be labeled and bound to a religion on birth, but should eventually choose form themselves.
Instead they should be given a wide exposure. So typically my children would have been raised with both Christian and Muslim influence, like aworkingmum describes earlier in this discussion.
To many people of my generation in my homeland were baptised at birth, and eventually dropped their faith because they simply didn't feel anything for it anymore.
So why not let children choose their own faith? Only God can decide who is right, and I think God probably wouldn't care in which way he is worshiped.

I wish I could sit down with this girl, talk things over, and work out a solution. However she is ignoring all attempts of me to contact her.
She tends to do this when she doesn't know how to deal with a situation, (as said by herself) and shuts out the element that causes her pain (In this case me).
Unfortunatly this also makes it hard for me to try and solve things, and my situation more grim.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by foxmulder (171 days ago)

The fact is that your girl needs to stand up to her parents and tell them that she will run her life the way she wants it and that you two will run your lives both as man and wife and as parents as you see fit- not them. If she succumbs to their pressure and you are prepared to accept it, it will not work. The parents, their religion and the influence from their community will be ever-present in, and will dominate your lives and that of your children. If she does not stand up to them now in such overwhelmingly important matters, what hope is there for you two to run your lives as you see fit? Where there is a difference of opinion between the two of you, don't you think she will accept her parent's views? What would they say about leaving it up to your children what god (if any) they should believe in? Whose view would your girl take if her parents insisted on your bringing up your children only as muslims? We all know that most people are "believers" because they were indoctrinated as kids. We accept what are parents and teachers tell us. That is why they catch as young as possible - we don't know any better. She has to face up to them if she wants you. She has to risk an irreversible break with her parents. If she won't do that, I just don't see you have a future and you should just move on. Marriage and parenting are difficult enough as it is. Although it may hurt you now, you will get over it. And there are lots more girls out there. Sorry to be so blunt - occupational hazard.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by ribbons (170 days ago)

Yes. You need to move on, Agito. Actually, your feelings for this girl are quite touching, and it is refreshing to read someone articulate such sincere feelings for another person in an era where love seems to have grown cold, and it seems most people are only trying to find a comfortable situation or arrangement for themselves. Even so, in my opinion, a truly important human quality one has to develop is resilience. By this I mean the ability to face a disappointment or setback, and face life again with hope, not in hope of the missing one to suddenly reappear in one's life - that is not hope, that is denial - but to accept that one can and will be happy again despite a great loss. The best thing you can do in this situation is to accept (as others have said above) the reality of the loss, and allow yourself a chance to move on. Therefore you need to try to forget about her, or think of her with kindness, believing it was always a flawed situation. If you keep idealising her and the life you might have had, it will prevent you from seeing that it was never real. A relationship has to be lived in real life, not in dreams and projections. Your dream was not going to be realised in the circumstances you describe. Do go on and embrace the life that is waiting for you, and that is possible, and let this go.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by nazlyn (159 days ago)

I praise your work to read the Quran and realise and "believe in the same God (Just follow the teachings of different Prophets)".But Islam and Al-Quran that brought by Prophet Muhammad was the final prophet and a complete version of life as "Islam is the way of life".
First,a prophet is essentially sent to help us understand something about God and His attributes,and to give us this knowledge that we cannot obtain by our own means.This is very essential to our understanding so that we do not mixed up in the whole realm of philosophy and theology.We have to get the correct knowledge through prophets.It would help us to avoid having divided loyalties by knowing that there is only one Creator for the entire universe.As an example of the basic call of the message of the prophets.In Chapter 21:verse 25,it says,

"Not a Messenger did we send before you (Muhammad) without this inspiration sent by Us to him;that there is no Gog but Me,so worship and serve Me."

In Chapter 11 of the Quran, you find that there are stories about different prophets.All of them say identical words to their people:"Worship God.You have no other deity but Him". So that shows that this is the unifying theme in all the messages of the prophets.In addition,to make it clear,the Quran indicates that one cannot really achieve servitude to God alone unless one shuns false gods.One verse in the Quran, Chapter 16:verse 36,says
"For We assuredly sent amongst every people a Messenger with the command:'Serve Allah (God) and shun false gods'."

The second basic mission of a prophet is to communicate to us the info. about the unseen ,because we cannot obtain info.about the unseen in the lab or by our own thinking.To document this the Quran ,in Chapter 72:verses 26-27,says,
"He (God) alone knows the unseen.Nor does He make anyone acquainted with His secret except a Messenger whom He has chosen."
So, the knowledge of the unseen is not only for God,but certain info. is also made a available to a messenger or prophet.

A third basic function of a prophet is to show us the way to tell us how to achieve salvation in this life ad the hereafter.How do we conduct our lives?What pleases God?What is our role on earth?What should our relationship be with each other?These are all things that we need a great deal of guidance about.As example of this is in the Quran in Chapter 3:verse 164,which mentions the mission of Prophet Muhammad,which was similar to the mission of other prophets:
"Sanctifying them and instructing them in scripture and wisdo,."

A fourth mission of Prophethood might surprise some people,although within the Islamic approach of integrating life it is very relevant.This mission is to participate in the struggle to establish social justice on earth.This means physically,if necessary, to participate in fighting the forces of evil oppression and exploitation.Of course, you might ask what evidence I have. We have several pieces of evidence in the Quran,but I will give you one verse. In Chapter 57:verse 25,it says,
"We (God) sent a aforetime Our Messengers with clear signs and sent down with them the Book and the Balance (of right and wrong) that men may stand forth in justice."
This shows that a prophet or messenger's participation in leading his people to fight evil and to establish justice on earth is part and parcel of his mission.These four basic points,I think, can be summarized,basically ,as true submission to God on an individual as well as a collective level.
Since you now is Singapore,u can go to The Muslim Converts' Association of Singapore(Darul Arqam Singapore),32 Onan Road,The Galaxy,Singapore 424484.
http://www.darularqam.org.sg .Email:info1@darul-arqam.org.sg. Tel:6348 8344.

I wish u good luck in your new life and may Allah bless your future and anything u may achieve.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (159 days ago)

Dear nazlyn,

Thank you for your explanation of things. I've already been in touch with Darul Arqam in Singapore. Basically to inquire about their opening hours. So far however, I haven't had the guts yet to go down there. Biggest thing is, I don't know exactly what to say to them. Technically I am not in a relationship anymore, making my visit there somewhat strange. I do wish to know what converting would mean, and why this is so important anyway.

Next to that, I wonder if it will help in getting her back. Its been a while now since I've been in touch with her. I've tried to get on with my life though, see other girls even, but my heart still cries out to her every day, and other person can make me as happy as she could.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by nazlyn (158 days ago)

Dear AgitoM,

"I do wish to know what converting would mean, and why this is so important anyway."
ANS:
Nobody should press you to make a hasty decision to accept any of the teachings of Islam, for Islam teaches that man should be given the freedom to choose. Even when man is faced with the TRUTH, there is no compulsion upon man to embrace it.

In making your move, Islam continuously reassures you that your rights to freedom of choice and freedom to use that God-given faculty of thought and reason will be respected. Every man has that individual will. No one else can take that away that will and force you to surrender to the will of God. You have to find out and make that decision yourself. May your intellectual journey towards the TRUTH be a pleasant one. The Quran says:

" Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects Taghut (evil) and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trust worthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things. " (Qur'an 2:256)

'When you have understood what is Right and what is Wrong (Evil), it is Forbidden for you to do Wrong.' 'Right and Wrong is defined by Allah swt the Creator the Sustainer. Right is to follow the Qur'an and Sunnah (Purpose of life) in all walks of life. Wrong ((bad) evil) is to do the opposite. The Punishment for Not following the Qur'an and Sunnah (working against Islam) is Clearly Stated and Warned by Allah swt.

Find out for yourself about Islam from reliable sources and not only taste it, but digest it well before you form an opinion. That would be an intellectual approach to Islam. It is up to you to make the next move.Since your heart still cries out for her every day,u may try to make her happy to begin as Muslim and u both will make each other happy all day long.
Be a muslim with True understanding of Islam.
The Truth will always prevail over falsehood.
The light of dawn always rises after the darkest moment, so think about it..
Perhaps avoiding ignorance and pride could help one understand the Truth.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Mobs (158 days ago)

AgitoM

I am in the proceess of being divorced from my wife who is a Muslim. When we first decided to get married (after 6 years of dating), she said she would convert out of Islam. She gave it a shot, but her religion had too great a hold over her and she gave up (nothing to do with parents here). I did the pretend to convert thing to satisfy her parents. I regret it greatly now. After our divorce is finalised, I will move to expunge my name from the Islamic registry. If Islam is so enlightened, how is it the only mainstream religion to make it a rule that one must convert to marry a Muslim - yes a blanket statement that is not fully accurate - but it is accurate enough. All the holy books say this and that. But if I cannot make my own choice (I was coerced into the "conversion" that I absolutely didn't believe in) and my wife cannot make a choice to change her religion to mine (whatever that may be), then the religion takes on more importance that our personal preference.

I second the view that if you want to do it, convert - but don't do it because you want to marry someone. I firmly believe, if anything, the wife should "follow" the husband's religion if the husband so believes.

We never had any kids in 7 years of marriage - I was too afraid she or her family or her larger community of Muslims would take my kids away and indoctrinate them into Islam. This I couldn't accept even more than my "pretend" conversion.

Now, we are the best of friends - I love her to bits, I will always care for her. But we cannot be together as her religion has taken precedence over our happiness as a family and married couple.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Xshoequeen (150 days ago)

Hi Agito M, I am deeply touched by your devotion to this lady and it gave me warmth, but, at the same time, may I suggest that you take a hard thought ( and I know it is easier said than done) if things are really going to work out with her, because you do not want to break her heart the 2nd time. 5 years, 10 years from now, after you marry her and have children, with the in-laws getting more involved, are you going to be able to persue what you and your wife really wants?
I think there is a big issue here more than religion. i am not criticizing anyone, just that I think it is a hard road when her parents have a strong belief in a way things should be. Maybe it will change once you two get married, it is difficult for her at the moment because she still belongs to the family unit of her parents and not her own.
I come from a traditional Japanese family, and my husband comes from a catholic background. Fortunately, both our parents are really open about the religion, or our life style. ( the whole talking to my parents about our decision has become easier after marriage .) I even asked the in-laws since they are really catholic if I should convert and they said no as it does not happen overnight, if i feel during the course of life that Catholic does it for me, they wish me to do the proper procedure. I have not decided yet so I am doing as much as possible to understand and follow the rituals of my husband religion and the in-laws are happy that I am respecting the religion. Same with my parents, they have no problem for the soon to be born grandchild to be western, catholic, if he or she chooses, japanese, Shinto, as long as the family is happy and healthy, they are even wishing that we have a baptism so that they can attend the ceremony and this comes from parents who said that I have to marry a Japanese until they met and spent time!!! So my point is, yes, you can go ahead and go back to this girl and take time, have the in-laws be comfortable with you as a person, but, at the same time, please think, different religion/culture, there are lots of things that the couple really need to discuss honestly and it is a really tense process. Can you bear your in-laws telling you what is acceptable with each and every thing? Our parents letting us be independent from what they believe has helped us so much. This said, maybe your love's parents might change but, it sounds like you should be prepared for the worst case scenario, no?
I wish no disrespect to your to be in-laws and I apologize if it came across that way but, i just wanted to high light a fact that the more you get involved, the more things have a twist in them and do you think you can be strong enough to support her? Please really give it a thought and if the answer is yes, what are you waiting for?

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (149 days ago)

Well, this evening I finally managed to pull enough courage together to go down to the convert center. Ended up talking to a nice and understanding lady there.

Basically she told me the following things:
Conversion for marriage is not encouraged, if there will be a conversion, they prefer it to be for the religion. However, she did comment later on that it is the law that a Muslim can only marry a other Muslim. (Didn't go into discussion on the two somewhat conflicting statements)

As for the actual conversion, it will require me to take 2 basic courses on Islamic customs. The actual conversion is mostly paper work but includes a sort of examination on my Islamic knowledge.

Circumcision is not mandatory, something I am quite pleased about.
As for the question why conversion is necessary, the lady had no answer to that, other then the "its the law" answer. She commented that these questions could best be asked at the basic course.

If I will go for the basic course? I don't know. Right now I don't see the point, because my gf until now has been completely ignoring me. Hope that this will be a good moment to resume contact, but if it doesn't help, guess I'll just have to forget about ever making things work out.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by Mobs (148 days ago)

Having been registered in the converts' association as a "Muslim", if I were to pass on, my estate may not even go to my family (non-Muslim) and any will I draft will not be applicable insofar as it contradicts the Islamic laws. I have to finalise my divorce and then launch an application to expunge my name from this association. I'm not sure how successful I will be. In Malaysia, it is against the law to renounce Islam. I'm so happy I'm not from or in M'sia.

My ex is in depression which has been triggered by the start of the actual legal process (paperwork, court petitions, etc) and has had to see a psychologist. As much as she wants to stay married to me, she is not willing to give up her religion. And, as the doctor says, it is a concious choice to choose the religion or me.

Unbelievable sadness and pain.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by Mobs (148 days ago)

I like the way Xshoequeen has conducted herself where I detect her gravitating towards her husband's Catholic beliefs. I like the fact that her parents are open minded and want only happiness for her and any offspring.

I don't understand how the law can be enacted to foist a religion on you - "it's the law". And I certainly don't accept that my ex has made the choice of her religion over me.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (148 days ago)

Well Mobs, let me tell you I really deeply sympathize with your situation, and feel very sorry about how your marriage has gotten. Actually the situation you describe is also a situation that I quite dread. I also wondered how far things will go should I ever give in a bit, which I already did in a way. It is quite possible I will be pushed one step further each time, and if not me, my kids may end up being manipulated.
Should I end up talking to my girlfriend again, I will definitely raise those concerns.

I can imagine you are quite sour about what the situation "the law" made you end up in. I've already commented several times in this discussion as for why I think such rules exist. Won't repeat it again since that comment may be hurtful to some, but the fact that so far I've not gotten a decent answer on the "why" question yet, seems to prove that point a lot.

As for me right now. I send out a mail to my ex-gf telling her about my visit to the Convert Association. Asked her if she wants to start talking to me again.
So far no answer, and I fear I will never get any, even though I hope I will.
When things stay silent on her side, I guess its over, I've gone as far as I can possibly go at this moment. There is nothing more I can do.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by Mobs (147 days ago)

I do wish you the best of luck in all of this and hope you will get to the place where you will be most happy.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by hoyo (147 days ago)

21st century and we still have problem with religion, it will never end!
18th century Voltaire fought dogmatism and the fight still goes on nowadays.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by AgitoM (144 days ago)

Well, after having waited for several days, and still not having heard anything from my ex-girlfriend, I guess all that is left for me to do is give up on her and the whole matter.
I've done all I could, can't imagine anything more I could do.

Thank you all for your kind messages and support.

(I am based in Singapore)

Posted by ribbons (144 days ago)

Agito... you've done your best. You were patient and understanding. You were up against a brick wall. This is a battle it's alright to disengage from. Stop trying. If I were you, I would send a final message to wish her well etc. Get some closure, and give it too. You'll feel better, and she'll know also that you're not going to hang around like a love sick puppy putting your life on hold. Somehow some people seem to have little respect for someone who is entirely at their mercy.

Courage is getting out of bed each morning when you really don't want to face the world. You can expect to be going through the motions for a while until the reality kicks in that you are actually free of those sad thoughts again. It will happen. Keep faith with life. It's the best religion I know of.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by sapphire26 (135 days ago)

I c no reasons of religion conversion. U both can maintain ur own religion after all! But, if either one is asked to take up one, give up! Coz, i don't think luv is based on any criteria.

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by 9-11 (135 days ago)

Well I recall, long ago, there was a Malaysian(?) singer called "Anita Sarawak" on the Chinese TV channel(s) here.

She was a Muslim, and was "pursued" by a Christian "boy" who, the only way he could marry her was to abandon his religion - i.e. He was effectively forced to take up hers.

After that, neither of them was ever sighted on HK TV again! I remember her for her fat red-lipsticked lips.

Luckily *I* wasn't pressured from being a W.A.S.P. to follow my wife's Roman Catholic religion or I would probably have walked away, but "chacun a son goute".

(I am based in Hong Kong)

Posted by somia_khan (132 days ago)

9-11 -- it's MUSLIM not moslem.

OMG AGITOM!!! i TOTALLY understand what u're goin through! Im muslim n my BF's christian. the only difference is that our parents dont know bout it. the thing is, my religion dsnt allow me to get married to a non-muslim. there r reasons, ofcourse. i'd never ask my BF to convert. buh i wudnt marry a non-muslim as well. cuz my religion is my priority.

(I am based in Hong Kong)